Week 7: Why and How Should We Tell Others?
This is something a lot of people share their opinions on, some cannot stand evangelising and other just think they're doing what they think is right.
My apologies for the lateness, a lot has happened with friends family and Uni (I am sick of fruit flies) but these should continue as usual for the next instalment.


Part 1: The Talk
Gumbel starts by telling us he used to be an atheist, this I don't doubt and I think may be one of the few honest statements he's made, who was irritated by Christians who evangelise.
I don't have that much of a problem with it, I'm always open to hearing other people's views and opinions. Constantly challenging your own views is one of the best ways to make sure you have the correct one. Christians believe they are doing the right thing, however the difference is this: I change my mind based on evidence, that is part of skepticism. You can demand evidence for everything, but when it is provided you have to actually consider it, if you are shown to be wrong accept it and move on.


Christianity has defence mechanisms against disbelief though, the whole concept of hell and punishment for non-believers is just one way to stop people questioning, as I said in an earlier post.


"People are looking for meaning in their lives, and in Christ we have an answer."
Non-Christians need to hear this apparently, Gumbel compares it to finding an oasis in a desert, you'd want to tell your friends. I think this is a great comparison, since people often see illusions in times of stress. If your friend kept telling you there was an oasis but can't show you any evidence of it, you'd ignore him. These types of arguments are based on Pascal's Wager.
We are told that when converting people we should "Establish a need for Jesus in their lives." To me this sounds like being told to lie to someone. I'd love to know how he feels about people establishing a need for Santa in other's lives.
But it's worse than that, it's telling people they need this to function, to be good, to not be tortured forever, it is emotional abuse.


Gumbel shares 5 points on why Christianity is a good thing:


1: Presence
The passage Matthew 5:13-16 is shared with us.
"Christians are the salt of the Earth, before refrigeration people used salt to stop meat going bad, Christians do that with society."
It's not like there have been any Christians (or groups of them) who ruin certain aspects of society (sorry but I had to throw a Kony reference in here, I'm sick of hearing about him too and could probably rant for hours about what is wrong with that video and Invisible Children).
As if I managed to mention bad Christians without conforming to Godwin's Law......fuck.
It's funny how the majority of theocracies around the world fail miserably in terms of human rights, how Christianity, in the USA at least, is the most vocal advocate against same sex marriage.


Needless to say Gumbel goes all spotlight and mentions William Wilberforce, a key figure in slavery abolishment and also evangelical Christian. I couldn't help but remember a certain quote:
"Good people will do good things, and bad people will do bad things. But for good people to do bad things, that takes religion." - Steven Weinberg.


2: Persuasion
You must persuade people to join Christianity, it is not one big leap of faith apparently, it is a "Reasonable step of faith." Reasonable faith? Well there is an oxymoron.
Gumbel mentions again the PRATT about science and Christianity never colliding and how the Bible has been 100% confirmed.
Well has it? There is no archaeological evidence of the Exodus, no records of Jews being kept as slaves by the Egyptians, no record of Moses ever existing.
I have heard this claim before, from friends as well, it is just a blind assertion. When you ask for evidence they say "It just has." or "Go look it up." No citations provided.


3: Proclamation
Gumbel shares a passage from John in which Jesus is referred to as the one Moses wrote about, funny how the laws of Moses don't apply any more according to some Christians (there is a lot of debate on this, some believe just the Sacrificial laws no longer apply and that Jesus was the ultimate sacrifice, others that only the 10 commandments apply the question then is which commandments? These or These and wasn't the whole Bible, including Leviticus, Deuteronomy and Numbers inspired by God).


4: Power
Yeah we all know about God's power, appearing on toast nowadays takes loads of power.


5: Prayer
Seriously? There is a great saying I heard: "Nothing fails like prayer, except abstinence only education".
I have covered prayer before so let's move on.


Part 2: The Discussion
I tried recording it on my phone to test an idea so let's see if it worked:




It worked but I speak far too quickly.
"If you did not know anything about Christianity how would you like to be told about it?"
Well honestly for once would be nice.
"Has anybody told anyone they are doing the Alpha Course?"
"Yeah I've told pretty much everyone I know, I have a blog about it too." (shameless self plug).
Some other members had and some hadn't.
"What kind of reaction did you get?"
"A good one from a friend of mine [name kept secret] was 'But why are you doing it you make Dawkins look moderate'."
"People do react weirdly when you talk to them about church and religion in general. A lot of people don't know what to say or make judgements about you."
Religion has always been something I'm open to discussing, normally I will be the first to state my opinion on a wide variety of subjects, particularly ones of science such as alternative medicine and other woo.


"What answer would you give to someone who said Christianity should be a private matter?"
"I have no problem with people being vocal about it, however there is a saying I use: You can say what you like, if I don't agree you'll find out."
The saying is actually 'Say what you like, but if you say something stupid don't be surprised when you get flayed alive' it's a great little sound bite.
"I feel it is a good thing to spread the Gospel, it saves people."
"What about if someone comes to your house telling you its on fire, you run outside but it isn't. I'd be thankful they were looking out for me, but if they did it again and again and said 'you're house could catch fire soon so get out now' you wouldn't be happy."
"Say for Christians once you've told them they can do what they want, for example: Your house might catch fire and you should leave it just in case."
Sensing Pascal's Wager I add.
"My new house could catch fire as well."
"If you believe that then you want to tell people about it."
"Pretty much all religions have consequences for non believers though."
"Well I imagine they want to do that as well."


"How do you feel about people telling you about Christianity or other religions?"
Another member says "It depends how they do it, standing around yelling you will burn in hell if you don't isn't the best way."
"Isn't that one way of establishing the need for Jesus in their lives?"


As nobody else is asking questions I feel I have to ask
"When Gumbel says Christians are the salt of the Earth, that it is your job to stop society going wrong to keep society well. Would you agree with that considering that the vast majority of Theocracies in the world are, for want of a better term, not well? If you look at history such as the Inquisitions, in Europe and Spain, which NOBODY EXPECTED, it's generally been the separation of Church and State that has benefited society the most."
"Well that's people with power, give people enough power without any checks and balances, power corrupts, I'm not sure that's an argument against religion."
"There is a movement in America called dominionism, it's a group trying to get the law of the Bible as law."
"Is it a big movement?"
"I think Michelle Bachmann supported it."
Shocked looks all around there.


"There is a lot of good moral guidance in the Bible though."
"There is a lot of bad moral guidance in there too, opposition to homosexuality and supporting slavery for example."
"Are they both together."
"Not together but they are both things supported explicitly in the New Testament."
"The reason it doesn't agree with homosexuality is because God defined marriage as being between a man and a woman so it isn't marriage."
Before I can respond another member says.
"It certainly doesn't agree with slavery."
"Epehesians 6:5 and 1 Peter 2:18 both explicitly support slavery."
"Context."
Oh come on who didn't see that coming? Please somebody find me somewhere in the bible it explicitly says Thou shalt not own another human being as a slave or something along those lines, there is Philemon where Paul tries to get his friend out of slavery but that's it. Not to mention the entire OT where slavery is supported by God.
"Okay and the context is?"
"If in that society they had slaves then yeah the Bible says they should obey their masters. It's not saying go out and have slaves. It is in the context of that time."
"Was the Bible not meant for all time?"
"Yes but there is also context, you can't just pick out certain bits. Ephesians was written to a specific church at that time and in that time slaves did have masters so were instructed to follow them."
"Could Paul have not written to them to release the slaves?"
"But that would have been a major thing at the time, that's like saying women all have votes and free choice, it would have been great but wouldn't have happened it was too revolutionary."
And a new religion wasn't too revolutionary?


"How do you think the best way to answer people's questions is?"
"Honestly."
Yeah that was the ultimate laconic response.
The session ends here unfortunately.


Once again thanks to everyone for reading, please share this around if you like it and all comments/questions welcome.