Afternoon with the LDS: Meet the Mormons

After spending about 1/2 an hour looking for the Mormon church (on a science park of all places!) I meet with 2 of their Elders (apparently you become an elder around age 18).

After the prayer we begin to discuss their beliefs.

(Italic is them)

"We believe that the Lord our God is our loving heavenly father."

"Because?"

"Because when we pray he answers."
"Does he speak to you directly, do you hear his voice?"

"Not all the time, he speaks to us in a variety of ways, sometimes it is just a warm feeling in our hearts."

"Well my heart does no thinking, it pumps blood. However all religions say the same thing, a warm feeling in the member's hearts, pretty much those exact words, they are entirely subjective, why is your's any different?"

"I know there is something more when I pray."

My first thoughts are that this hasn't answered my questions at all, the personal experiences of any person are entirely subjective, they are not independently verifiable. If we based our beliefs on personal experiences we would have to believe in alien abductions and other nuts.

"Is there anything in the Bible you disagree with?"
"Not at all, we believe it is the literal word of God."

-Let's see if I can have some fun with these guys-

"What do you think of homosexuality?"

"We oppose it, that doesn't make us popular but we oppose it. We believe it was Adam and Eve for a reason, not Adam and Steve. Homosexuality is unchaste, there can be no sex outside of marriage just as God decreed. We believe it is the function of marriage, and therefore sex, to procreate. Homosexuals cannot do this."

"What about IVF, lesbian couples can have children in this way."

"We believe that is interfering with God's plan."

"Can God's plan be changed? Doesn't he know exactly what's going to happen at any time all the time, being omniscient?"

"Yes, but people still have free will, he knows what will happen but gives us the choice."

"How? He knows what choice we will make, he knows when, it is predetermined in his plan."

"We do not agree."

That was their only response to the objection, just a blanket assertion that they do not agree.

"What religion are you?"

"I'm not."

"You must be, what belief system do you follow."

"I don't." 

"Are you an atheist?"

"That's not the term I use, I describe myself as a Humanist, but this is not a religion since there is no supernatural belief or rigid belief system."

"Do you believe in evolution?"

-This is when it hits me: Holy fuck these guys are creationists!-

"It is the best explanation of the diversity of life, it is not linked to atheism though."

"Why do you believe it?"

"I'm a Genetics and Biochemistry student, I have a good understanding of the evidence that supports it." (My Yorkshire accent really spiked at this point, actually laughing at my recording).

"Such as?"

"Endogenous retroviruses for one example, homology, genetics, observed speciation events, fossil evidence."

"OK. We don't accept that."

Again, not actual reason why, just the assertion.

After this we just kept going around in circles and nothing important really got mention so I will end it here.

Now, on to the Alpha that evening:

Week 5: Why and How do we read the Bible?

With more than just a pinch of salt I should say.

Part 1: The video

Gumbel starts with an anecdote about him smuggling bibles into Soviet Russia. I personally thought medical textbooks may have been more help.

He tells us how the bible is the single most influential book ever, how it sells 44,000,000 copies a year. My thoughts on that matter are that Twilight sells a lot too, that doesn't make it good (more on this in discussion).

We are told how it changes peoples lives and societies. Most religious texts change people, some non religious texts change people, this has no bearing on the truth of the Bible's claims.

In a fit of immense stupidity Gumbel defines science as the study of God through his creation. Just let that sink in before reading on.

Science, the single best tool ever devised for understanding how the world works apparently presupposes God's existence. Presuppositions being one of the main sources of bullshit around, look at the MMR vaccine scare, people started with the presupposition that MMR caused autism and ignored contradicting evidence. Presuppositionalism is a common tactic in apologetics.

Gumbel asserts there can be no true conflict between science and religion. Really Nicky? Do you actually believe that Nicky?

He shares with us an Einstein quote: "Religion without science is blind, science without religion is lame."

Yet it is known that Einstein was not a Christian, he was a Pantheist, he thought the whole universe was god, literally. I will share another quote by Einstein:
“It was, of course, a lie what you read about my religious convictions, a lie which is being systematically repeated. I do not believe in a personal God and I have never denied this but have expressed it clearly. If something is in me which can be called religious then it is the unbounded admiration for the structure of the world so far as our science can reveal it.”

As for the statement that there cannot be a conflict between religion and science, what about the Creationists lobbying in the USA? There are countless conflicts between religion and science, to name one sacrificing birds does not cure leprosy.

Gumbel states that the bible is 100% inspired by God and that any historical errors will be sorted out with time. This is presuppositionalism again.

Gumbel states how suffering is a problem for Christians, he almost mentions the problem of evil but his response to suffering is that God allows it so that Christians can understand it. So a child in Africa starves to death as a parasitic worm is boring through his eyeball just so you can understand suffering?

We're told the Bible is a love letter from God.

Now, anyone who knows me will know I haven't had many love letters in my short life...yet. However if someone sent me the Bible:

Dear Mad Splicer,

                             I love you so very much, I want you to be with me and worship me forever, I used to kill untold numbers of people but I sacrificed myself to myself to save you from myself. I created you the way you are but want you to be different. I gave you these critical thinking skills but don't want you to use them. If you ask me for anything I will either do it or tell you I've done it.

Love

Yahweh

P.S. If you don't love me: I will tell my other lovers to kill you and I will torture you FOREVER.

Yeah, blatantly a love letter there Nicky. I don't care how beautiful, intelligent or fun to be around etc. someone is, if the threaten to burn me forever, even just burn me once, for not loving them. They just aren't my type.

His final point, which makes me laugh my arse off, is the well famed Look at the Trees argument.

It is basically an argument from ignorance which says "Look at all the beauty in the world, it must be designed."

This is an example of cherry picking, Gumbel mentions sunsets and starts, but obviously not Necrotizing fasciitis or the aforementioned parasitic worm. 

He then asks do you think God is speaking to you?

My answer should be obvious...

Part 2: The discussion.

Mary is ill unfortunately so the group is led by somebody else.

The initial subject is a comparison of the Bible and other religious works and why it sells so many. I bring up the fact that there are more Christians than other religions and that some other religions still follow the Bible.

One member says that if everyone were to follow the Bible the world would be better.

Stunned by this I mention the homophobia, slavery and sexism in the bible (see passages in last post).

Their first objection was that this was OT, I mention the passages in the NT and you can all guess their response can't you?

Context.

In his talk Gumbel mentioned that in a football game the players are more free when there is a referee to set the rules/enforce them.

He compared this to morals and life. As if saying that God is the ultimate source of morality but in a mild way.

The group leaders asks what we think of this and I use Monopoly as an analogy:
When you play monopoly there are groups that have house rules and some that throw out the rulebook and have more fun using their own rules. Even if they didn't have a referee the players still know the rules and could play just as well without one, they don't need the referee to enforce the rules. Watch the premier league the referee makes a mess of it sometimes.
In reference to morality, I usually use empathy as one source of morality. We are a social animal we can put ourselves in other peoples positions and understand we wouldn't like that so we assume they wouldn't. I don't like suffering, person X doesn't, Y doesn't etc. we can go and make a society that has lower suffering no referee needed.

The next question is what advice would you give to someone who wants to hear God?

The first, and best, answer was "Listen". Which makes sense, but it's hard to listen to what isn't there.

The next answer was "You have to expect an answer/look at what happens and try and find an answer". So you just make up an answer if you don't get an obvious one or assert that something must have been an answer.

"Just keep telling yourself it's Jesus until you believe it."

That's it for this week, this weekend is the trip away with the Alpha Course so I will have a lot to write about it.

I'm getting lots of questions about this blog so I will post an FAQ sometime, please leave any questions you have below (you can post anonymously).